Potion Crafting - Alchemist's Supplies vs Herbalism Kit - Rules & Game Mechanics - Dungeons & Dragons Discussion - D&D Beyond Forums (2024)

Hi folks, I've been looking into homebrewing a few things to make crafting more substantial/worthwhile, and it's occurred to me there's a lot of conflicting information in the official material - notably on the subject ofpotions and similar items.

The PHB, DMGand Xanathar's contradict each other (and sometimes themselves)in various way.

Everywhere confirms that a herbalism kit is used to make healing potions. The PHB has listed them as a regular item, but everywhere else (including AL and Twitter) has since decided they are magic items. This is all pretty clear. Herbalism kits make healing potions, and they count as magic items.

This is where things start to go downhill.

The PHB/Xanathar's confirms that a herbalism kit is also used to make antitoxin - but Xanathar's also lists alchemist's supplies as making antitoxins.

The description of the herbalism kit says 'create remedies and potions', yet the DMG says 'acharacter might need alchemist’s supplies to brew a particular potion'.

Does recent content override the old? Is the PHB the primary source we should make rulings from?

Are herbalism kits and alchemist's supplies entirely interchangeable, or is it only certain items/potions that overlap? Are they entirely different with no overlap? I've heard some people say that herbalism kits are for healing potions and antitoxin, and that alchemist's supplies for all other potions, but no official ruling that I can find actually confirms this.

It's easy enough to make a house rule to define them, but I'm curious for what people think the official rules on these are meant to be. Any thoughts or ideas? Have I missed any rulings?

I vote on overlap, for the interpretation.

My general interpretation is that herbalism kits make helpful things. Healing, restorative, antitoxin, and similar. Poisoner's kit obviously makes poisons. Alchemist's kit make any kind of potion, so anything that is counted as a 'potion' would be included in the Alchemist's kit.

On interpretation, I agree with Mellie.

Just because something can do a specific thing, it doesn't mean it's the only thing that can do it. Both tools can probably make potions of healing and antitoxin (because those common things are likely the focus of a lot of effort).

At the same time, they're not interchangeable - Alchemist's supplies might have issues making moist, plant-material bandages for burns, just as much as a herbalism kit wouldn't be ideal to make Alchemist's fire (or a potion of fire breathing).

I have the feeling their exact usage is left vague on purpose, so the DM can place it where it's most effective for the campaign/setting. Newer versions don't seem contradicting to me, just adding more options.

I'd say make the judgement based on what you think each kit is.

For me, I'd say an herbalism kit is like a mortar and pestel. It's used to grind up leaves and petals with a bit of water to turn things into a paste. That paste or solvent can be put into a potion. Since a potion of healing is likely just different herbs to create stronger effects with varying amounts of water, an herbalism kit works.

An alchemists' kit treats non-plant based materials with various chemicals and heat and stuff to maintain properties of the original item in question (Like a potion of fire breathing probably can't be made from plants. To do this, you'd have beaker like containers that have setups and rigs to set over a fire or are tempered to be more heat resistant. You could use this as a mortar and pestel but I'd say it might invoke disadvantage just because your rigging something that doesn't have the same applications.

A poisoner's kit may include gloves and vials as well as something to extract poison from a particular item (Google snake bite kit for an idea of what these look like) and basically there is no treatment to be done to the item. It's ready to go as is, it just contains things that are helpful with collection, storage, and application.

Whilst the poisoner's kit seems well defined, there are plenty of poisonous plants out there - nightshade being a classic example. Although it doesn't mention it anywhere in the rules, I feel like a herbalism kit should be allowed to make poisons from plant-based sources. However, on that note, the poisoner's kit is also said to have a mortar and pestle - there's nothing that the herbalism kit is said to have that the poisoner's kit doesn't when it comes to creating - should we be allowing poisoner's kits to be used to create healing potions? Would you be able to make certain items with both kits but only apply your tool proficiency if making the right item with the right kit, or apply the modifier in all scenarios for using the tool itself?

Something that's not been touched on is that the herbalism kit includes the tools needed for collecting herbs, and specifically states they can be used to collect herbs, whilst the description of both the poisoner's kit and alchemist's supplies suggest they areentirely intended to aid crafting as opposed to gathering materials. This is reinforced by Xanathar's tool proficiency section.

I don't feel like the alchemist's supplies need to help you gather materials, but I find it odd that there's no official kits/guideline designed for harvesting poison. It seems like the intention for it is to just use a straight Intelligence (Nature) check.

Personally I like Pseudoimmortal's idea of a poisoner's kit including the specific tools to harvest poison (and subsequently being able to apply your poisoner's kit proficiency to harvesting poison).

Oh yeah, I forgot about gathering. In my DM's campaign we simply refer to materials as Reagents to simplify the crafting aspect so that we can focus more on the story. Although, each reagent costs something like 30 gold. I'd say a straight nature check to collect, you can use your tool proficiency if you have the tools, but I think it's possible to end up with the same number in both regards.

One could also make the argument that with an herbalism kit (Which would arguably include some thick gloves and scissors) you could possibly gather more of a material since your not being so abrasive with the material.

Same would go for the

So about half way through writing this, I decided I should go and actually look at the components of each and all include a mortar and pestel. The herbalism kit seems to be the only thing that doesn't have anything particularly special. Frankly, I've always considered the herbalism kit to be a collecting thing but when I read about it in the PHB, I think it said that the herb kit crafts healing potions, poisoner's kit makes poisons, and alch supplies makes the remainder. I thought it was odd but went with it but I think Herb kit and poisoner's kit should be about gathering the requisite items and the alch supplies should be the conversion into potions.

Maybe we can ask WotC to put out a publication purely on the composition of potions, the clarity of use of each kit, and maybe an overall guide on various flora and fauna and their habitats within the multiverse. It would certainly be a nice change from the usual focus of monsters, I think.

I think these rules are indeed purposefully vague. We are each invited to come up with our own concepts to cover how we want our characters crafting. I feel the Herbalism and Poisoners kits are sort of more specialised versions. I imagine them using different skills and doing certain things easier. The DCs below don't necessarily represent a pass/fail skill check, but maybe the amount you pass or fail by will affect the price you must pay for ingredients. You could add skills like Nature, Arcana or Investigation into the mix too if you like.

Poison Kit (Int or Dex?): Basic Poison DC10, Advanced Poison DC15, Some other applications to extract of apply poisons, get more uses from the same dosage.

Herbalism Kit (Wis): Basic Restorative Potion DC10, Advanced Restorative Potion or Basic Poison DC15, additional applications with herbs and plants and with healing, replenish healing kits?

Alchemy Kit (Int): Non-magic product (e.g perfume ) DC10, Basic Potion or Poison DC15, Advanced Potion or Poison DC20, additional applications with chemicals and such.

I guess you could introduce some temporary repercussions for failing or rolling low; injury, loss of spell slots or other character resources, loss of extra money, potion is corrupted, damage of property belonging to someone else. I would also hesitate to let players use this as an income source while adventuring. Explain that potions created on the go are rough around the edges, look and taste a bit off so don't generally sell. Only potions created slowly and carefully over many days or weeks (during down time) would be of saleable quality.

I know this is probably going to be a tad late to reply, but for anyone else looking this up later.

Consider this:

The herbalist kit is like the hippy/Chinese medicine sort of treatment. And the alchemist supplies are like the pharmaceutical medicine.

Using CBD and THC extracts from cannabis as an example.

The herbalist kit would dry the plants up, then soak them in iced water and manually agitate the water. Before filtering the water to collect the sand like hash.

The alchemist would grind the dried plants into powder whole, before exposing it to a solvent like alcohol or supercritical CO2, to dissolve and break down the plant material. And then letting the solvent to evaporate.

The end products do the same thing with different potency levels and shelf life. They still need to same original source material however.

Cooking

A cook will need to hunt his prey for meat. For this he will use Survival (Dexterity) to extract the meat brutally, but if you want noble cuts of good quality you will have to use the proper tools (Cooking`s Tool) from a blacksmith (Smiting`s Tool). To get good salads, as well as growing a quality vegetable garden, you will need the correct of the profession (Herbalism`s Tool).

The conjunction method is more where I fall on these matters. So I generally do things as follows:

• You needherbalism supplies kit to obtain plant-based ingredients for various things. This would include the use of a book that likely comes with the kit, and I assume within the kit are pruning sheers, some of that useful powder you put in a vase to keep cut flowers longer, etc.
• You need alchemy supplies to extractgood components from said flowers (or other items like ore and giant toes) because those supplies are honed towards that type of process. In my games, making a potion still requires a certain amount of magic, even common potions like regular healing. Because of this, the tools, themselves, are imbued with a certain amount of magic. There are also likely a few different items in a dedicated alchemy set over one dedicated for poison. Not to mention, again, the book(s) that go with it.
• You need those poison supplies to understand, create, and store that kind of material. It is built and honed for extracting thenegative qualities of core components.
• You need a set of brewing supplies to be able to use some of the same exact plants in a potion, but to put into a new ale you're crafting.

If one PC doesn't have proficiency, they can work together. If nobody has one, they can get materials from shops. Basically it's most expensive to buy a potion and it lessens the cost based on how much you're able to do on your own. Even a glassblower can reduce the cost by making the vials needed for storage.

I think this has been deliberately left open to DM interpretation and discretion. I would consider allowing a character with proficiency in an herbalist kit to use it in preparing an herbal poison. But the character would first have to identify the proper plants to use. A character using proficiency with a Poisoner's kit would only have to make one check to prepare the poison, while the herbalist would have to make two.

Both an herbalists kit and an alchemists kit can make antitoxin, but they go about it in different ways.

Beyond that I think it up to the DM to decide what can and cannot be done by a particular character with a particular kit in a particular situation.

Quote from DavetheLost >>

I think this has been deliberately left open to DM interpretation and discretion.

It seems to me that a lot of things have been left intentionally vague in 5th edition; which I both like and dislike. On the one hand it allows freedom at the table for the DM to make it as easy or as complicated as they want, and make it fit within the world they're setting. On the other hand, it inadvertently encourages what some would call open discussion, but what others would call argument or furious debate, with the players and the DM. If you have mature enough players, they'll allow you to move forward without worry. If you have just one player who wants it their way right now in this session ... well, that's another story.

I've always felt that Crafting and Gathering were not very well defined in any of the editions. Some players really enjoy the idea of making their own stuff and it feels like there's nothing we can really provide them that's simple and effective. In light of that I've actually begun working on a homebrew spreadsheet to make Gathering/Crafting more interesting for my players. I'm not very far into it, but this is a snippet:

I plan to useDael Kingsmill's rules for crafting poisons and medicine and, the way I will make the distinction between an Herbalism/Poisoner's Kit and Alchemist's Supplies will be that Alchemist's Supplies is used to create potions that are magical in nature, while the Herbalism/Poisoner's Kit can be used to craft only natural-based ointments and poisons.

We have no magic in our own world and yet people have been using their knowledge of plants and other natural elements to craft this sort of stuff for millennia. For me, that's what theHerbalism/Poisoner's Kit is for, while theAlchemist's Supplies are the magical enhancer, that allows you to take things you craft to the next level. Also, bear in mind that potions are more than just healing/poison, you can useAlchemist's Supplies to craft potions of strength, flight, etc.

Quote from MellieDM >>

I vote on overlap, for the interpretation.

My general interpretation is that herbalism kits make helpful things. Healing, restorative, antitoxin, and similar. Poisoner's kit obviously makes poisons. Alchemist's kit make any kind of potion, so anything that is counted as a 'potion' would be included in the Alchemist's kit.

Yes. Also, HERBALISM KIT is listed in PHB along with ARTISAN'S TOOLS as main categories with "Alchemist Supplies" listed as a subset of and as an Artisan's Tool. There is and can definitely be overlap, but the primary purpose of herbalism kit is "to create remedies and potions" and goes on to specify "proficiency with this kit is required to create antitoxin and potion of healing." That makes it your go-to for healing with herbs, identifying and applying herbs. It need not require Alchemist's supplies for healing that uses herbs. To make poisons (say as an assassin) from herbs, you would primarily rely on/must have/be class/other proficient in, I think, POISONER'S KIT, specifically to make poison, even when you rely on poisonous herbs (for which you would THEN need the Herbalism Kit). And that playable knowledge comes from where? Tome, training, tale? There are ways about this ("some consider to be..unnatural"): A background like Hermit that grants this Herbalism Kit proficiency. Then onto a class/subclass/feature/UA feat/multi-class, say Rogue Assassin (grants POISONER'S KIT proficiency) plus another that grants proficiency in the Alchemist Supplies proficiency if you wish. A poison may need not feature in alchemy (unless specified) if you're proficient with Poisoner's Kit (and if needed, Herbalism Kit). Then for alchemy you need a lab, a grant, work space, supplier...whew! J/K

Quote from VillainTheory >>

Hi folks, I've been looking into homebrewing a few things to make crafting more substantial/worthwhile, and it's occurred to me there's a lot of conflicting information in the official material - notably on the subject ofpotions and similar items.

The PHB, DMGand Xanathar's contradict each other (and sometimes themselves)in various way.

Everywhere confirms that a herbalism kit is used to make healing potions. The PHB has listed them as a regular item, but everywhere else (including AL and Twitter) has since decided they are magic items. This is all pretty clear. Herbalism kits make healing potions, and they count as magic items.

This is where things start to go downhill.

The PHB/Xanathar's confirms that a herbalism kit is also used to make antitoxin - but Xanathar's also lists alchemist's supplies as making antitoxins.

The description of the herbalism kit says 'create remedies and potions', yet the DMG says 'acharacter might need alchemist’s supplies to brew a particular potion'.

Does recent content override the old? Is the PHB the primary source we should make rulings from?

Are herbalism kits and alchemist's supplies entirely interchangeable, or is it only certain items/potions that overlap? Are they entirely different with no overlap? I've heard some people say that herbalism kits are for healing potions and antitoxin, and that alchemist's supplies for all other potions, but no official ruling that I can find actually confirms this.

It's easy enough to make a house rule to define them, but I'm curious for what people think the official rules on these are meant to be. Any thoughts or ideas? Have I missed any rulings?

I would say that it seems that herbalism kits should be able to make basic herbal potions, poisons, and remedies. An alchemy kit should allow for greater refinement of ingredients through more complex processes, and therefore more effective and much more complex potions. It should allow for the use of ingredients beyond just herbs as well. And the same for a Poisoners Kit. Herbalism is more about using the raw plants as they are to help you as needed, while the Alchemy kit allows you to further process the ingredients and to imbue with magical properties or at least enhance what's already there. This would also fit with the Alchemy kit being a magic item and the herbalism kit not being one.

Think of it like the difference between drinking shot tea spiked with honey, lemon and whiskey, or going to the doctor and getting a prescription. While the tea will work for a simple sore throat or cold, more serious illnesses will likely require you to go get a prescription.